Vicodin & Opium based medications

[Bad Boy Bad Boy]

This may not affect others as it has me.

I have learned that certain medications containing opioid based, can have a reverse reaction in our body. This is very true, and I have now proved this on myself. The Opium based medications can force our body to think it is in more pain then what it truly is. Yes, it is so very true. Here is what happened.

Remember a while back when I was talking about my back pain, and was going to the doctor for a review and such, with blood work? Well, before that, he was prescribing me Vicodin 500mg. After the visit because I have had an increase in pain advanced that to 750mg and added another medication for my knee and shoulders.

Okay, but, the knee and shoulders got better, but, my back pain was getting worse, and worse as each day passed, after 2 months it was getting even more worse. Then I learned of the Opium based medications.

There are a difference between these medications also;

Natural opiates;
Morphine, codeine and thebaine

Semi-synthetic opiates;
Hydromorphone, hydrocodone, oxycodone, oxymorphone, desomorphine, diacetylmorphine (Heroin), nicomorphine, dipropanoylmorphine, benzylmorphine and ethylmorphine

Fully synthetic opioids;
Fentanyl, pethidine, methadone, tramadol and propoxyphene

I have listed these in their proper position as they should be.

Okay, I stop the Vicodin, day 1 after 24 hours, I'm starting to move, sore but seem to be getting slightly better. After 3 days, moving even more, yet getting better from day 1, after 7 days, even more better, and now day 12, I am moving, some slight muscle fatigue, very slight, knowing it is there, but haven't had pain like I was getting before I tried this, in fact pain isn't there.

I have done nothing at all different except stop the pain medication of Vicodin. Which is classified a Semi-synthetic opiate medication.

Now wouldn't you know it, that last night on the TV show "House" Dr. Cuddy makes a 1 liner statement to the fact that this is a medical fact, that I had found out a couple weeks back. Dr. House sucks down Vicodin on TV. She stated this one liner, and if you blinked, you would have missed it being said.

(The Opium based medications can force the human body to think it is in more pain then what it truly is)

The TV show "House" is based on a given medical fact, but is short on the whole story, and the most of the show is the Drama.

I will be talking to my Doctor about this now. For I remember I done this stop of Vicodin before and had less pain, but it didn't hit me till this time.

[red1030]

Hi badboy, I guess I should apololize for not sharing this a long time ago. This is why addiction is such a concern. The main concern about addictioni not only due to the side effects that may happen as a result of sudden stopping of any of these medications, but also, becasue the longer you take them, the less affective the medication is for pain becasue of our body's reaction to them. This was very important information and I am so glad that you have shared it and connected it to your own personal situation that validates what you are saying. Thanks BBBB Red

[Bad Boy Bad Boy]

Red

And I can see a person doubling up on these pain meds trying to get relief also, that they won't get when something like in my case happens to them.

Strange thing is, my last Doctor appointment, I told him I didn't want these Vicodin.
1) They didn't seem to help me;
2) The addiction reason;
3) Being less affective after certain periods of use;

But, he said, since he added in the Medication for my Arthritist, he wanted to wait to see. Well, we would have never known, if I didn't have stop taking the Vicodin. I was smart enough to know how to get myself off them, by slowly doing the reduction of the amount I took for a week.

Looks like me and the doctor are going to have a long talk again.

[Still in Limbo]

In Pa., We have a "Utilization Review", where the Judge will Select a Panel of 3 Dr.'s to Look at an Injured Workers Meds. and Dr.'s Care, and give Their thoughts on whether it is Necessary and in the Best Interest of the Injured Workers care, and they almost Always Say that the Opiates and Long Term Pain Medication is not Necessary, I Guess in Part from what You are Saying in Your Thread. I think in a Lot of Cases, PM Dr.'s are too Quick to Prescribe Opiates, and in Turn they Cause More Problems in the Long Run! If I could Stop these Dam* Things, I would, I have Tried what You did, and the Pain won't allow it. I Usually Try this when My Meds. are Changed, and I'm so Happy for You that You were able to get Off of the Vicodin, and Actually Help Your Pain!! Please let Us know what Your Dr. had to Say about All of this!! Have a Great Day!!

[Cycler]

I have mentioned opiate induced hyperalgesia before, it is well established finding in the animal labs can't test it in humans. The Pain literature does address this as one of the reasons to pull back from the prescribing of opiods for non-malignant pain which has been the fashion for the past 10-15 years.

Let me clarify some points though. The terms opiate and opioid are often misused or confused.
An Opioid is any pain medication that binds to the opioid receptor.
Opiate is a term referring to the natural occurring alkaloids from the poppy plant, opium, morphine and codeine ( thebaine is not used clinically) , as well as the semi-syntetic narcotics derived form them such as hydrocodone, oxycodone, oxymorphone and many others. Vicodin is hydrocodone, a semi-synthetic opiate, and available in 5, 7.5 and 10 mg strengths while the acetominophnen componenent is the 500 mg.
Purely synthetic opioids are tramadol, fentanyl methadone and many others.

Any opioid may induce a hyperalgesia response in lab animals. All opiates may induce hypertalgesia in humans then, it is not confined to any one class. TV story lines follow the news and medical research. Most Drs. are not aware of this phenomenon.

Red1030: You are confusing the term addiction with tolerance and dependence and for pain patients and their families this is a very important distinction.

It's easiest to think of addiction as a social issue, engaging in harmful behaviors such as drug seeking, versus a physiologic issue, the body developing medication tolerance to a particular dose requiring an increase to effect the same analgesic response.

In general, legitimate pain patients do not engage in addicton behaviors while all long term chronic pain patients treated with opioids will develop tolerance and dependence.

Here is a very well written concensus statement on the topic:

http://www.cpmission.com/main/addiction.html

[Bad Boy Bad Boy]

Cycler, you have mentioned opiate induced hyperalgesia before. This is true. Also, I want you to know I do truly like you, your opinions and such. I want you to know, that when you may have mentioned it in the past, that (1) I may of not needed the information at the time or (2), I may have not understood what you meant. Being said, I tore down this post you made, and perform some searches on certain words so I could understand what you meant by using such words. My knowledge base may not be as good as yours or some others. In the past I had asked you to follow your Post up with a web link like you did here in this post you made. I did read it, and understood it well, thank you for that.

Let me explain what I'm getting at a little better. In your Post the word (hyperalgesia) was used. Well, okay, I had no clue to what that meant. So being so, like maybe in the past when I may have read your other post, I was breezing through reading, and simple said gee okay, what's this all about. That makes me now think maybe, just maybe other readers then read it, and skiped it, because they didn't understand it neither. See my point? It is my opinion that maybe if you could, break your post reply's down some, everyone understands your intended point. I feel it would then be even a greater benefit to all then.

Please let me know on what you think of that.

And again thank you.

[Cycler]

Yes, I see your point and will be mindful to clarify or explain uncommon words should I use them from now on. thanks.


Two terms that chronic pain patients should be familiar with are Hyperalgesia and Allodynia. Allodynia is more common in fibromayalgia.

Hyperalgesia is the term used to describe a increased pain experience to a generally painful event say a pinprick that becomes unbearable. Allodynia means a painful response to a generally unpainful event. Both can be found in chronic opiate users and reflects changes in nerve receptor response or central nervous system remodeling.

Bad Boy Bad Boy Wrote:Cycler, you have mentioned opiate induced hyperalgesia before. This is true. Also, I want you to know I do truly like you, your opinions and such. I want you to know, that when you may have mentioned it in the past, that (1) I may of not needed the information at the time or (2), I may have not understood what you meant. Being said, I tore down this post you made, and perform some searches on certain words so I could understand what you meant by using such words. My knowledge base may not be as good as yours or some others. In the past I had asked you to follow your Post up with a web link like you did here in this post you made. I did read it, and understood it well, thank you for that.

Let me explain what I'm getting at a little better. In your Post the word (hyperalgesia) was used. Well, okay, I had no clue to what that meant. So being so, like maybe in the past when I may have read your other post, I was breezing through reading, and simple said gee okay, what's this all about. That makes me now think maybe, just maybe other readers then read it, and skiped it, because they didn't understand it neither. See my point? It is my opinion that maybe if you could, break your post reply's down some, everyone understands your intended point. I feel it would then be even a greater benefit to all then.

Please let me know on what you think of that.

And again thank you.

[sparkey]

So what does one do when they are in pain and need relief? I have also thought many times lately over the last few months how percocets have made me very depressed and have made me so fed up with taking them and when I try to cut back on taking them the pain just is so unbearable that I cannot stop taking them but do take less. I would like to get off these all together.

I have a pain clinic I went to that told me that my primary doctor now has to prescribe my narcotics. After speaking with him he decided to do it. Now I want to change to the patch and afraid to ask him cause my daughter uses it and thinks it is the best thing to do. I do not know how to go about it or if it is even a good idea. I really feel the percocets make me lazy and not want to do anything and want a pain pill that would also give me energy to go out and do things as a family again.

I went for a cervical steroid injection today at the pain clinic and pray that this takes away the pain. The doctor thought he would give it a shot ( no pun) and still feels that even though he thinks I have RSD in my hand/arm that maybe it is the cervical discs and maybe this could be our last chance at maybe this will work and it will not be RSD and will be a cervical problem instead even though the MRI said everything was fine.

I just want off these meds. So BB what are you going to be doing now to get some pain relief of your back if you are not going to be taking the vicodin? How are you going to be dealing with this pain??? Did you have any withdrawls?

[Cycler]

Sprakey, be aware that it is not a common phenomenen and that opiates are a reasonable method of treating intractable pain. Be open with your Dr. about the medication concerns, most knowledgable Drs treating pain actually prefer their patients be on a sustained release medication such as the fentanyl patch rather than the short acting narcotics and so you are likely to find a supporter.

[chrischris]

BBBB, I saw last night's episode of HOUSE and did catch what was said. When HOUSE started, it was my favorite show and I would not miss a show. Then after season 1, it seemed he started getting meaner and I got fed up with his open addiction and popping vicadin like it was candy. He could have been such a good role model for an injured worker, but he showed that the only way out of pain was popping pills. Now I am watching it again, and I hope the focus is more on recovery from addiction.

For me, I use narcotics very sparingly. I found that after my neck surgery, I really didn't need the narcs but the muscle relaxants became a problem. I couldn't sleep without them. I got over that. Now it's the klonopin I take for anxiety. If I miss a dose I start sweating and shaking. I can't go without it now. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not just the opiods that cause dependence. Then when I had my achilles surgery, I soon was taking Norco10's more than I needed and the more I took, the more I wanted. I did realize the mistake and cut back. I do need norco and flexeril and klonopin, and other meds to maintain functionally so they do serve a good purpose when used correctly.

There is a big difference between a user and an abuser.

I'm rambling......so Ill shut up now.